Overcoming deep insecurities with Jaemin Frazer

[00:00:00] So our special guest on today’s podcast is Jaimen Frazer. Now, Jaimen is a life coach who deals specifically with insecurities. So you might think to yourself, Greg, I haven’t got any insecurities.

I don’t need to listen to this. Actually, I think when you do listen to this episode, it’ll probably uncover some things that we all have issues with. And maybe that comes from childhood. As in, I’m not clever enough, I’m not going to be good enough for this. All of these sort of things can start playing out in your business if we allow these things to overtake us.

So Jaimen talks about getting right back to the root cause and a seven step framework on how you can overcome these securities in your adult life. I think you’re going to find this absolutely fascinating, so let’s dive in.

GMT20240306-023559_Recording_1280x720: Jaimen really appreciate you coming on the show today. Thanks for joining us. Oh, great. Thanks for having me. Awesome, mate. So we’re going to dive in and really get into the depths of this subject, which is going to be so interesting for my listeners. So first of all, Jaimen, do you just want to introduce yourself to our listeners?

What’s your background? What do [00:01:00] you do? Sure. So I’m Jaimen. I’m the founder of The Insecurity Project. I specialize midlifers who’ve achieved all kinds of success. In periods of their life, but haven’t really done the work around their own narrative, and now it’s in the way. So I help those kind of people solve the insecurity problem.

And most people don’t think it’s a solvable problem to start with. They think it’s just universal and the best you can do is manage it. So I’ve kind of devoted my best thinking to deconstructing insecurity and creating a model around how it gets solved. Fantastic. Okay. So I presume you haven’t always been doing coaching, Jaimen.

How did you get into this? What was your path into getting into coaching? Yeah, absolutely. So my background, I was a church pastor. I grew up in the church. My parents were very Christian and I loved the way that they modelled their faith. It made sense to me. I was the youth pastor in my church growing up and then Thought [00:02:00] that it’s what I wanted to do with my life was to help people grow in their faith.

And so I went and did a degree in theology and got given the leadership of the church that I grew up in when I was 23, which I just thought that was, that

wasn’t going to work. When, when their leadership decided I was, I was the guy, I just imagined everyone was going to leave the church, but everyone thought that I was, I was in fact capable of doing that.

So that was 10 years of being pastor. Very meaningful. The, the curiosity though for me was, you know, as past you were invited into people’s world all the time to talk about the things that matter, talk about change and growth. And I was fascinated by how ineffective those conversations were and how little change I saw.

And it seemed that The typical pattern was that Christians would want to outsource responsibility for change onto God. They were often consciously or unconsciously hoping for a miracle, that God was going to come through and save their marriage, you know, [00:03:00] get their kids on the right path, sort out their finances, fix their health.

And so the idea of personal responsibility and self awareness always felt too secular, like it didn’t belong. And I always thought it belonged. And so, My curiosity just was really peaked when a guy mentoring me at the time introduced me to some coaching frames and I just thought, this is a missing technology.

Like, where has this been? This, this belongs. And, and the first, like I, I went, dived headlong into that, went and did a a diploma in coaching and. You know, added that to my world and, and that’s kind of where I discovered insecurity because I, I felt such a resonance around this coaching methodology and I thought, I really think I was a great, pastor, but I think I could be an excellent coach.

I think this is really where I fit, and I got all jacked up on Mountain Dew, as you do in these coaching environments. Everyone’s going to change the world and make a million bucks. [00:04:00] And, and I just thought, wow, this is me and it’s going to work. And I told my best friend and my wife that I was going to finally write the book that I’d always thought I would one day write.

And now I had an idea and I was going to do it. And I, while I was always studying. Wrote the first chapter of my first book and at 11 o’clock at night shut the lid on that laptop and all this excitement and energy and passion turned to fear and dread and oh no what have I done like I’ve embarked on a process and who am I again and what gives me the right to say anything about this and why will anyone listen to this and I’d gone from this safe, known, comfortable world where I was liked and respected and had a platform and was kind of the top of the tree.

To going out into the real world where no one cared and no one knew me and I had no credibility and yet I was, that was the space I was trying to play in. So I uncovered this mountain of insecurity that I didn’t even know was there and it terrified me and I just thought then and there, like. Is this a solvable problem?

Like, [00:05:00] I’ve never known this was there, but it is. And if I don’t find a way out of this insecurity, I will shrink back to the safe world with my tail between my legs. And so that began my curiosity and a quest to go, has anyone solved this problem? And, you know, thankfully I found a bunch of people that had.

Just no one had modelled it, so it was my work to reverse engineer it, how did, how did you do that what was the thing that made a difference, and so I discovered a bunch of things that were essential to solving insecurity and that then transformed my life and became the basis for then how, how I thought I could be most useful to others in the world to go, okay, well, insecurity now makes sense to me and people suffer greatly for not knowing they can fix this, so That’s what I’m going to devote my my energy to.

Fantastic. I love hearing stories of how coaches got into the business. Interestingly enough, [00:06:00] you generally see patterns actually from good coaches. Oftentimes it’s. They’ve got this natural desire that they want to help people. And obviously that’s been all the way through, isn’t it? When you’re in the church and yeah, sure.

To your coaching, you’ve got this desire that you just want to make people’s lives better. So certainly resonate with that. And it’s just fascinating really how, when you actually. Get a taste of what coaching actually is. I remember my first taste of coaching was Tony Robbins, actually, and He got introduced to him out of nowhere, and I was just like wow it’s like it just blows your mind that there is this thing as life coaching and Improving performance and being your best self and all that and you know that was that was my journey into it actually so I can certainly resonate with Some of the things you’re saying there.

What I love too is that you’ve just said that you’ve Now you’re now coaching on something that you particularly struggled with and found a solution to and I always found that really fascinating because now it’s got some real meaning behind it. So let’s just explore that a little bit talking about these insecurities then [00:07:00] because this is a, this is a big problem.

And this will certainly be a problem with some of my listeners today that are listening to this construction company owners and they may well feel insecure about their ability to potentially grow a business and manage a business and all things around that. So you’ve just, just talk me through that a little bit.

So you’ve written a few books of you on, I know you’ve written books, but you tell me about some of the books you’ve written around addressing insecurity and how you deal with that. Yeah, well, against the advice of my business coach at the time, seven or eight years ago, I decided to brand myself the insecurity project.

And he said, Oh, you can’t do that. People are insecure about being insecure. Like it’s the thing no one wants to talk about and everyone’s pretending isn’t true. So, but I just thought, ah, man how could I not this, like I have a real engineering bent the way that I think and the way I see the world.

And I love structure the moment you can say structure, you can deconstruct and rebuild. So. So the book that I’ve [00:08:00] written is called Unhindered, The Seven Essential Practices for Overcoming Insecurity and it just tries to be very pragmatic and structured about what appears to be messy and mysterious and weird and untouchable and, you know, fear often consumes us because it goes unexamined.

So what happens if you turn the light on and see what is this thing that you are afraid of? I love Yoda’s wisdom, named must your fear be before banish it you can. So most people have this level of abstraction about what it is that agitates them that is so obscure that it can only become a monster.

So the, the practice of being clear, what, what do you mean when you say you are afraid? Afraid of what? Would it, you know, is, is there any logic to this fear? Does this fear stack up? Where did this fear come from? And so just that beginning point, moving insecurity into the realm of solvable problem by discovering what it really is, is you know, it’s certainly a [00:09:00] very transformational experience.

Yeah. So what are people currently doing then if they, if they’re not aware that they need to address the insecurity first, what’s the route people are going down to try and solve there? Well, when I was writing this book, I, I started out on a mission to eradicate insecurity from the world. So. That sounded like the best language and really altruistic, but if you hear someone’s on a mission, you’re like, oh no, here we go, like, they’re going to be annoying about this.

And I, I had this, thought about the value of insecurity, which was surprising to me because I get invited to talk to young people about insecurity. All the time. Teachers have me come into schools. Parents are excited. Teachers are excited. But do you know who’s not excited to have me talk about insecurity?

17 and 18 year olds. They’re little shits. They’re not ready for wisdom. And, and the, the fascinating thing was [00:10:00] insecurity is often still working for them. So I’m sure people can relate to this idea that Some of our biggest motivation comes from proving people wrong. So someone said, you’ll never do that.

You can’t do that. You’re not good enough. And it’s like, right, I’ll show you. And it’s like rocket fuel. It’s performance enhancing drugs that, you know, drive you further than you would have ever gone before, all out of this aggressive energy to prove that you’re not who someone said you were. So it’s all useful.

And I thought there’s no point taking that away from people until it’s run its course, because it’s going to run its course. And that time that you stand on the mountain and go, look, look, I can do it. And you’re looking around at all the people who are celebrating and the people who told you you couldn’t do it, like they forgot that they even said that to you in the first place.

And they actually don’t care. No one actually cares. So it’s such a shallow victory. And you’ve burnt yourself out in the process, and it’s such a toxic way to be a human. And so, I just kind of talk to people mid life [00:11:00] when they’re exhausted, and they’re ready to consider that perhaps there’s a way of reviewing this.

So but it’s rare that people stop for breath, because they get so invested in an identity around proving and defending, and it’s the human condition, right? We want to be good, we’re just afraid that we’re not. So for fear of that not being good ever being confirmed, we run or we hide. So most people are really committed to their hideout and it’s an act of real courage and kindness to stop.

But I, I just, I watch what happens and insecurity unresolved always leads to madness. So it doesn’t go well. If you don’t find a way in the midlife season to review the narrative you’re living out of and address these fears, then it gets worse from here. And it’s not a performance enhancing drug anymore.

Now it’s destabilizing you to the point of madness. Yeah. So let’s just talk about that a little bit because I imagine a lot of people don’t realize that they have a problem with this or this, this insecurity. So what would be the warning signs, like, what sort of life would someone be living [00:12:00] for them to then question, you know, have I got an issue with this?

Is this something I need to address? Yeah, well, if you just did an audit of what gets your best energy, that’s, that’s a Fascinating place to start and if you were to zoom out and just have a look at you being you and just see how much of your

energy is devoted to proving and defending yourself and if you’re thinking you’re trying to grow a business you’re trying to do something innovative you’re trying to solve important problems and yet all your best energy is being directed to prove and defend then that can’t be a very efficient way to run a business let alone to be a human and let alone all the extra energy that gets wasted in worrying what others think of you And just the obsession, the conversation reruns, the second guessing yourself, the rehashing embarrassments and failures and always feeling like people are talking about you or have an opinion about you and just, then you procrastinate about important tasks so that that person [00:13:00] doesn’t not like you and that person doesn’t talk about you.

And it just. There’s a bunch of inefficiency with energy that I would say becomes the most catastrophic thing for ambitious midlifers. People who are trying to do something meaningful are so compromised. And when you’re young, you can get away with the inefficiencies. Midlife, you can’t be inefficient.

Who are you kidding? You don’t have extra energy to waste. So It’s just extraordinary watching what happens when people eradicate that insecurity and then are free to bring their best energy to the things that matter most with nothing to prove and nothing to defend. Of course, not only are they better humans, but of course they’re more effective at the things that are important to them.

Yeah, that’s really interesting. So, so let’s imagine someone now, they listen to this, they recognize that they’ve got an issue with insecurities, they are trying to prove themselves all the time and things in their head, conversations, whatever else, which I guess we all do to a certain degree, but if I guess if it’s a constant narrative that’s [00:14:00] going on, there’s, there’s something that’s not quite right there.

So what would be the next steps? Let’s imagine they want some help with this. Where would, where would they go to, to look for some help? Yeah, well, like, practice five in my model, like the seven essential practices. Practice five is get help from someone who doesn’t care about you, and that’s pretty counterintuitive because you’d think you’re going to need some kind, loving, caring person who’s going to believe in you and support you to help you build self esteem, but those people get in the way, so no one’s coming to save you.

You’re going to need help, but someone who’s not going to get in the way, someone who can hold a clean conversation. So I think at some point we all need the level of objectivity because we rehearse these stories and find evidence for what we think is true and they become self fulfilling prophecies, they take on a life of their own, and so they feel so concrete.

So it’s hard to get out of your own head with enough distance to be able to look back in and dismantle them. So that happens somewhere along the line, but [00:15:00] I would say the very first step is just this question. Okay, so what are you afraid of? And I would say 100 percent certainty is a bold claim. So let’s, let’s say with almost 100 percent certainty, you won’t know the answer to that question.

You will not have given that question nearly enough attention. You might think you know, but I promise you, you do not know what you’re running and hiding from. Because if you did, then you would be in the game of solving it. And it’s profound because people think they’re afraid of failure or rejection or some kind of that form of that, but they’re not.

No one is afraid of failing. They are afraid of the personal implications of failing. If I was to fail, what does that reveal about me? No one’s afraid of being rejected. They’re afraid of if they were to be rejected, what does that prove must be true about them. So when you really have a look at insecurity, We are most afraid of our own worst opinion of ourselves.[00:16:00]

We just don’t want anyone to confirm it. And if you want to get even closer into the problem, you form that opinion about yourself when you are less than seven. So the first time you got embarrassed, disappointed, scolded, excluded, you made sense of that. against yourself. You personalised that experience negatively and you decided the reason that happened was because of you.

And so you accused yourself of having some deficiency, some inadequacy, and then you thought you were right. And the rest of your life has been trying to make sure no one else ever knows that that’s true about you. So your whole world is built on the opinion of a scared child. That’s the, that’s the insecurity problem.

So that’s what you’re afraid of. So just saying it like that goes, Wow, that can’t be impossible to solve then. Like, did that kid actually get it right? Nah, I don’t think they would have. What, what child could have got it right? What child has the emotional intelligence [00:17:00] and the objectivity to know who you really are in the context of your difficult moments as a kid?

Yeah, that’s interesting. So. When you say it like that, it almost seems to sound like every child, every person, would have experienced something like that. Does that mean everyone’s got these insecurities inside them? Or are some people just reinforcing it more throughout their life by the way they’re living and the way things are playing out?

Why can some people potentially not have an issue with this and others do? Great, great question. So insecurity is domain specific. So, so some, every, everyone, universally, no one escapes their childhood without developing limiting beliefs. It’s not possible. And the great thing is it’s not desirable. If you’re a parent, you actually wouldn’t want to protect your child from getting confused about who they are.

Cause, if you really want to understand the game, you’ll see that the wound is the gift. The obstacle is the way. The fact that, as an adult, you get [00:18:00] the chance to go back into your childhood and bring your best skills to bear on yourself, that’s actually how you become mature. There is no other way. If you had no work to do, how are you supposed to work out how to love, how to be wise, how to sift out truth from falsehood?

You can’t. So, it’s a gift. So no one escapes it but people get very clever about building safety and hiding from insecurity. So, so it looks like they’re fine. And maybe it, maybe that’s their, their experience. They build a world so well that then they’re nowhere in danger of being found out. Take them out of that world, however, or if that world was to be taken from them, then yes, that insecurity all of a sudden blows up.

And that’s what I, like I had at the onset of COVID. I had such an influx of people faced with their insecurity because their certainty left them overnight. All these safe worlds they built for themselves to protect themselves from [00:19:00] being found out were gone and now they’re faced with their fear. So that’s, everyone’s got it.

If you haven’t solved it, it doesn’t automatically fix itself, but you can trick yourself and others by creating very clever strategies to hide. That’s really interesting. So when you started off originally, you said get help from someone that doesn’t know you is that that was the first step, was it? It doesn’t care about you more specifically.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Great. So once they, once they’ve done that, what, what, what, what else is part of this framework, this seven step framework? Sure. So, so practice one is to step into the light, which means name your fear. So tell the truth. What are you afraid of? If you, if you’re using terms like the imposter syndrome, that’s, it’s imprecise.

That’s not helping. You, you are distancing yourself from the opinion of a scared child. You’re saying it’s a syndrome. You’re saying it’s something that’s happening to you. Like you’ve been vague about this. So that’s not going to work. The only [00:20:00] people who solve this Get very precise. I love Jordan

Peterson’s, you know, Rules for Life, Rule 10, be precise with your speech because things that go unnamed become monsters that consume you.

So that’s where you start. From there, you go, okay, great, so this is an opinion problem. Okay, well, I know why I’ve got this opinion because, do you know what, like when I was, when I was six and I was playing soccer and you know, and I was having fun with my friends and I wasn’t that paying attention to the, and the, and the ball went through me to the golf.

I got in the car. My dad sobered me. He was so upset that I let the team win. I didn’t even know it was that important. It turns out it was very important and he said some things to me that I’ve never forgotten. And from that moment. I’ve always felt like, what’s the point in trying because I’m weird or I’m an embarrassment or I’m a, you know, or I stuff things up.

And so, yeah, I know why I’ve got these opinions about myself because my dad [00:21:00] said that thing to me. Or when I was at school, the teacher pulled me out and said, you’re stupid. You’ll never amount to anything. Or, you know, everyone’s got these words spoken by others and they think, ah, it makes sense. That’s why I’m insecure because of what happened to me.

It’s misdirection. That’s a trick. Yeah. That’s not what created insecurity. I’m one of my old time. Sorry. Is that easy to uncover? You know, I guess some people will have like a memory where they think, yeah, I really remember that specifically that those words and how that happened to me. But, Maybe some don’t, you know, do you think some have like hidden memories or suppressed memories, like, how would they uncover those sort of things as they get deeper?

You know, because the way our brain works, it’s a pattern gathering machine. We have to create a map to live out of. And so with 100 percent certainty, you know, words that hurt. are stored so precisely in 3D color, all the sounds, all the emotions, they are there pristinely. [00:22:00] It just, if you don’t have any way of facing that, or you’re afraid of that, then it’s lovingly hidden under the stairs in a filing cabinet, guarded with some bodyguards, so you don’t remember it.

I’ve got people all the time who say, Oh, this is going to be hard for me, James, because I don’t really remember my childhood. I kind of think I had a fine childhood. Yeah, it’s, it’s not really there. Okay, sure. No, it’s there and it’s still directing your whole world. But practice too is this idea of responsibility because I was going to say my all time most gifted and recommended book is, The Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz.

I don’t know if you’ve come across that, but he says, listen, you got to understand this. It’s not the words spoken to you or about you that change your life. It’s just the ones you agree with. So that’s, that’s transformational because it just means no one has the power to bless you or curse you without your permission.

And it all of a sudden moves you from being an actor in the story to being the storyteller. Like you’ve had the pen the whole bloody time. [00:23:00] So, it wasn’t that Dad said, you know, you’re an idiot. It was that when Dad said that, you went, huh, I think he’s telling the, I think he’s right. I am an idiot. Like you signed off on it.

So all insecurity is built on the worst thing you decided was true about you. And That means you created this, so you’ve got the pen, you’re the only one who can change this. So that really, again, it puts you at the center of the action, keeps this as a solvable problem, and that’s the only way this ever gets changed.

Whenever you’re living as a victim in some way, like, ah, I wish my child was better, if only that didn’t happen, you’ve missed the game. That’s not what actually changed your life. Yeah, so taking full ownership of your, I guess your partner, even though you might have been young, but you, you’re in control of.

How you’ve let that narrative go. So we’re just going to need the control back to make the change. That’s right, and it’s not to blame the child, because what [00:24:00] child has the capacity to be wise enough and objective enough not to accuse themselves in those moments, so it’s not, there’s no upset about it, but it’s just where did the action actually take place, to break through all the misdirection, and just, because if you can see where the action took place, then, and you were the heart of the action, well then, you control all the levers, you are the one who can fix this as soon as you’re ready.

GMT20240306-023559_Recording_1280x720: Yeah. How do you know if you’ve [00:25:00] actually got the memory or the the phrase that was said to you, you know, because, because I guess for some people it could be multiple things that are said is, is it literally like an aha moment for people where they go, that, that was it, you know, where, where does that, where does that come from?

So, so to be very pragmatic and structured about this, that’s, it’s entirely testable. So behavior never lies. So we think we believe all kinds of things, but behavior is the end of the assembly line and the factor of our beliefs. So all

ruth, what are, what are the things you do that you know are weird, you know are dysfunctional, you know is compensating, and then work your way backwards.

So what must I believe about myself in order to behave like that? So, an example of a client who, that very question, how will I know, what, what, what are the words, what are the things I accuse myself of, what am I afraid of? And so, [00:26:00] she noticed this incessant, like this obsession with being seen to be smart.

So, always worrying, will I get this wrong? Like, can I answer this question? What if this comes out weird and people think I’m stupid? Like, if I’m not going to excel at this, I can’t even dare go close to it. I can’t afford to not achieve other than perfect. Because then someone’s going to think I’m stupid.

And so She watched herself afraid of being seen to be stupid. And so the data is there to go, okay, well, when was the very first time you decided that you could be seen as stupid? And so she goes all the way back and realizes there was a first time. That wasn’t the origin. And that’s the fun of this. If you go back far enough, every child starts relaxed.

They start with a complete awareness that they’re enough, and it’s fine to be them because they’re not making any transactions, they’re not paying board, they’re not paying, you know, for food, they’re not doing anything to contribute, and yet they’re being loved and nurtured and looked after and [00:27:00] their dummies being picked up when they squawk.

So they go, look at this, it’s okay to be me, I am more than enough. And then that very first time when they get embarrassed or they show up relaxed and it goes terribly wrong, like everyone’s got that first experience. And so, so I think there is always one thing above everything else because there’s a first time and, and often there’s a, there’s a thing that you accuse yourself above everything else, which really is the worst thing you’ve ever thought about yourself.

And it’s all variations on a theme, right? It’s all some kind of inadequacy, but for some, it’s, yeah, I feel like I’m stupid. And for some, it’s I’m weird. For some, I’m invisible or I’m worthless. You know, for others, it’s I’m bad. Like there’s something really wrong with me. So yeah, it’s when you deconstruct it, you just say, wow, there is evidence.

Your whole life has been about compensating and covering so that no one else ever knows you’re stupid or no one else ever thinks [00:28:00] you’re weird or no one else would ever even consider that you’re worthless. So yeah, all the

evidence is there. It’s just been compartmentalized and suppressed so you don’t find it because you’re scared.

But if you get to the point in your life where it’s killing you and you’re like, oh my goodness, this insecurity, all my best energy, proving and defending myself. Which is practice three, by the way, to stack the pain, so it’s no one solves this except from a place of pain. Like no one calls me and goes, Jaimen, yeah, my life’s awesome.

Can you help me solve insecurity? They goJaimenin, I am suffering, like my marriage is falling apart I’m in my head all the time. Like I’ve put on weight. Like I, I don’t know how to be me. Like it’s weird. And I, this is, this is getting worse and I don’t know what’s wrong and I can’t keep going on like this.

Great. Yeah. Cool. You don’t need a big motivation to do what’s always been impossible. Pain, pain will do that for you. And if you tell the truth about the cost of unresolved insecurity, [00:29:00] you will have all the motivation you need to go back into your childhood and review data that’s previously been off limits.

And that’s proven, isn’t it? About stacking the pain again, just it reminds me of something Tony Robbins taught. He’s big on that. Yeah. I think the dickens process, he, he calls it where he really starts stacking the pain in in his events on, on something to create the change needed. If you, if it feels painful enough, then you’re gonna go, that is it.

I’ve hit, you know, not, maybe not hit rock bottom, but I’m, I’m done. I’m not gonna accept this anymore. And, and now Exactly. Take control of it. So that, that’s the principle behind that. So yeah, that’s fascinating. And Tony is very good on the fact that that is only half the change process, the motivation, because he says, if you just do pain stacking, you’ll then only do enough to get out of pain.

And then as soon as you’re out of pain and feeling good, then all the motivation dries up. And then six months later, you’re back to where you were. So he says, you must also be clear about what you do want. [00:30:00] Don’t just pay attention to what you don’t want. So this idea, and this is practice four, you’re going to have to develop a compelling vision for your life.

Tell the truth about what you do want, what you’ve always wanted, what is the desire of your heart. You know, if you get to the end of your life and you’ve never achieved this certain thing or follow this certain path and you’re going to

die with the music in you, it’s going to be a waste. So both, yeah, pain and desire form the basis of enough motivation to see the job through.

That’s Big Tony’s contribution. Yeah, yeah, that’s great. So thinking about that when you’re thinking about what you really want in life, again, I guess there’s a bit of digging that needs to happen here, isn’t it? Because people are just living their lives, they’re, they’re, they’re just going day to day, aren’t they?

Working hard. Sometimes we don’t actually stop and think. What am I doing? What am I doing? Where am I going with this? What do I want things to look like later on in 20 years? So how do you help people uncover that what they really want? So you’re right, it sounds like such a simple question. I think it’s the hardest question that [00:31:00] exists.

Especially when there’s unresolved insecurity, because you’re like, hang on, it’s dangerous to put your head up and say, I want this, because then that sets you up for failure and rejection and disappointment and others are going to think you’re crazy and what if it doesn’t work and everyone’s looking at you, so it’s just safer to let others tell you what you should want and then complain about it.

But I just go, well, the desire is human though, so if you tell the truth, Your heart does want what it wants, and so it’s there. So the way that I help people uncover that is I do the silly ideas only exercise. And I think it’s the only way in, because it takes the pressure off. So the way that I do this, and it’s an exercise I’ve done maybe two or three times a week for at least the last ten years.

So I get a, a, a, like I love a nice, journal. So I get a blank page and a nice pen. So just the kinesthetic of a nice thick white clean page and a nice pen that writes itself. Yeah, this is not a discipline, this is a [00:32:00] ritual. And then, then I write on the page, hey, Jaimen, if you could have anything, well, what anything would you want?

And the rules of the game are silly ideas only. So no accountability and no responsibility for anything you write on that page. Swing away. Because you’re gonna go, you write the first thing down and go, oh man, that’s bloody silly, I can’t have that. Yeah, exactly. That’s the name of the game. You can’t get it wrong.

So swing away. Swing away. Swing away. And the real fun of this exercise is that you will not be able to tell the difference between your silliest ideas and your most honest ideas the first time you write them down. But the cat’s out of the bag. You will, you will witness yourself tell the truth in amongst a whole bunch of weird stuff.

And if you keep playing this game, you will see patterns emerge and go, what, why does that thing keep coming up? What is it about that? And so when I look back over the last 12 years of my life, All the things, every single thing I’m most [00:33:00] grateful for and I celebrate the most, all started out as silly ideas only.

Like every single one of them were impractical, were improbable, were strange, but they were true. And if I hadn’t found a way to de escalate the pressure, because otherwise people go, goals, right, goals, goals what do I want, right and it’s just like the pen starts shaking and it’s just this pressure that if you write something on the page.

You’re now accountable and responsible for whatever happens and you’ve got to go do it. And so it’s too big a step. So that’s, that’s the way in. And I like to game a fight, have some fun and you can’t help get in touch with your own heart in that exercise. Yeah, I like that. That sounds fantastic. So let’s imagine now we’ve seen some patterns.

We’re starting to work out what we want. What’s the next step? So practice five is get help from someone who doesn’t care. So I think that kind of sits above all of this. But if you liken this to the hero’s journey, which it very much is, [00:34:00] the hero starts out as a weakling, says yes to the call to adventure, and he’s going to have to go face a monster.

But the hero always meets the wisdom character. There’s always a Gandalf, there’s a Yoda, there’s a Dumbledore, there’s a Mr. Miyagi. And when you first meet the wisdom character, you think they’re going to save the day, but they never do. That’s not their role. They equip the hero and then they bugger off.

They die, they disappear, they vanish, they are not there in the moment. And so I think that’s the great challenge for therapists and counsellors and psychologists is not to confuse the world about who the hero is. And I watch them do it all the time, because sometimes people go into that space because they love rescuing people, or they’re hiding from their own dysfunction behind the desk, fixing other people so no one’s looking at them, which is a horrible thing to do to someone.

So to find someone who can hold a clean space for you, who doesn’t have a vested interest. Like, it’s so much fun, when I get to coach someone, my very [00:35:00] first job is to convince them I don’t give a shit about them. And I, and I say, I know I look like a guy who cares, but you cannot confuse me for someone who gives a shit.

I’ll forget about you, I won’t lose any sleep over you, you’ll tell me sad stories that I won’t cry. Cause it’s not my life, right? And I’m not another person who needs you to do something you don’t want to do. That’s not me. What, but, but if you tell me what you want, oh sure. I’ll give you everything.

I’ve got to help you get that. And I know the way, by the way, but you’ve gotta want it. So just treat people like adults, treat people as they are already responsible for creating this mess and empower them and remove. So I think it’s, it’s such a difficult step, but a very crucial one. Because then practice six is be the hero.

So eventually, you know, you are going to have to confront that accusation. So you’re afraid that you’re not stupid. You realize, you know, afraid to be found out as stupid. You realize you decided you [00:36:00] were stupid when you were four, when you were in the car with your dad. You’re going to have to go back there and review the data.

You’re going to have to go find the evidence. And it could be true, right? Like, maybe the kid got it right. Maybe you are worthless. Maybe you are weird. Maybe you are stupid. Maybe there is inadequacy. Could be something wrong with you. There’s only one way to find out. You’re gonna go have to have a look.

And, and that’s the hero, right? Cause the hero gets to a stage where they either die, or they come out the other side reborn. Like they’re gonna, they’re going into the cave. You know, the treasure you seek is in the cave you fear. And they know they can’t go home. And so it’s a terrible moment. But it’s so predictable and so structured there is no escape.

You will have to decide what is true once and for all and you’ve built up all this evidence that you are stupid but you know it’s all a misunderstanding and no one can tell you that because you’ve lived your own life but you’re going to have to go be the hero and work it [00:37:00] out and then to complete the process.

Yeah. Sorry. What’s step seven? Well, step seven is to rewrite the story. So you’ve got the pen, eventually having deconstructed the old story that you’re not stupid. Well then, who are you? Like, what is true? What is a new narrative to actually build a life upon? And I find people, when they hear practice seven, they go, Oh yeah, I get it.

Affirmations on my mirror, be kind to myself, be positive. Sure. Don’t let me stop you doing any of that. But if you don’t deconstruct the old story first. Then no amount of affirmations is ever going to touch the side because as soon as you

get stressed or anxious or triggered, that old story is going to come out and take over like it has every other day in your life.

You must face the fear first, clear the slate, change your mind. Now you’re free to use the pen. And then your work is for a short period of time to align yourself to the new narrative and agree with it until it’s the [00:38:00] default. And then you’ve established a new way of being you. That means you’re now unhindered.

You’re now free to go into the world. at your best where it matters most with nothing to prove and defend, until your world gets so big that you’re taking, you’re saying, yes, there’s no barriers anymore. You’re saying yes to things you would always say no to, that you then bang your head on the next insecurity that now has become apparent because you’re, you’re getting so big.

And then the same seven practices that got you free last time, get you free this time as well. Wow. So you go, you go again with something else. Yeah. That’s, that’s really interesting. Well, because people say to me, Sorry, people say, Sir Jaimen, surely you’re insecure, and I say, no I’m not, not at all. There is not a moment of energy spent directed protecting or defending myself at this current level of growth.

However, I promise you, my world keeps getting bigger and I will face the next subtle thing I said that I was good enough for this but not good enough for that. It’s coming, of course it’s coming, and I welcome it when it [00:39:00] does because it’s evidence of growth, not regression. And I know when I get there. I know exactly how to deconstruct that story and write a better one, just as I have done at every other stage of growth.

So, but at this current level, not a moment spent worrying about grieving or defending what others think. I know what I think and I am very secure in me. Yeah, I like that. So, and this is, this goes back to what you said before, we’re using the pain of the past actually as a teacher to help us grow going forward.

So it’s, you know, it’s actually a blessing, isn’t it? That sometimes the pain points really fascinating. If someone Does deal with a particular insecurity, they go through these steps, they’re rewriting their story. Can it appear again, that same insecurity, or is that once it’s deconstructed it’s done? Or is it, for some people it’s pretty embedded and they may have to keep revisiting the same thing.

That’s a great question. So, I had a psychologist podcast the other day and I said, can we be healed? And they said, [00:40:00] well, no, no, like the best we can do is to move toward health and, and have a clean scar. But we will always have

the marks of our woundedness and we’ll carry that with us forever. And so it’s always managing the things that have gone wrong.

And I just said, I don’t have any logic to sustain and support what you’ve said because the wound is not what happened to us. The wound is what we decided the reason was that thing happened to us. So we are the ones wounding ourselves. No one has the power to ruin us. Otherwise we’re just victims of our world.

If you’ve had good parents, you’ve got a good life. If you had terrible parents, you’ve got a messed up life. That’s not how it works. So I go, this is very binary. I decided that I was stupid when I was five, so that’s either going to be true or it’s going to be false. If I hedge my bets with it and go, oh, I need to build up confidence so I don’t feel stupid, still unconsciously, I think it’s true.[00:41:00]

I’m just trying to get further and further away from it. So to go back and completely go and sit with that, go back to that kid, have a look at all the data and go, it’s not there. There is no evidence. A misunderstanding has been made. I disagree. That is, that has never been true. Well then, you have changed that for good.

Like it is there, it’s not there anymore. How, how can you feel anxious and insecure if there’s no structure for it to sit on? So this is not, like most people don’t think like this, but I just, I’m not trying to be, I’m just trying to be logical and to think engineering in an engineering way about this.

You must be able to solve this problem completely and then move on. So if a person experiences the same insecurity show up again, I, I just say you are being pressure tested. That’s all this is. You’ve built a new story for yourself. And it’s like an engineer who builds a new engine. Wonderful that you can start it and it runs in the car park.

Can this thing [00:42:00] handle some heat? What happens when you get it out on the highway? Like, where, where are the weakest links on this thing? So it’s wonderful that in the safety of your own study in your journal, you’ve changed your mind about being stupid. But the world’s coming for you, right? And no one knows you’ve changed your mind and you’ve trained people to treat you.

So you’re going out into the real world and it’s not going to go well every day. You’re going to get embarrassed. You’re going to fail. You’re going to fall. So can you handle this new agreement under pressure or will you crumble? Will you go back to what you always decided was true anyway? Will you betray yourself again?

So I just. It’s really important for people to know, this is going to be tested by the way, so can you handle it? Are you going to hang on to your own storytelling, or will you betray yourself again? Because if you can handle that under heat, then this engine’s now certified. It’s ticked off on great.

That’s good. That engine works. So go use it, go flog it, go drive it fast, you’re away. [00:43:00] Fantastic. It’s been a fascinating conversation, Jamie. Really interesting and went a route down that I wasn’t expecting would go down, actually. Yeah, that’s so cool. Really, really interesting. It was a great, really great conversation.

So if someone wanted to learn a little bit more about this, you’ve got a book out on this. Do you want to just give us the title again of the book and, and how people get more information on this? Yeah, sure. So it’s called Unhindered, and I think that’s the prize, to be able to show up unhindered by doubt, fear, and insecurity your best energy directed toward growth.

So, Unhindered, the seven essential practices for overcoming insecurity. And if people are like unsure, I’ve, I’ve got a couple of, tests on my website, you know, find out where is insecurity costing you the most in your life. There’ll be five key indicators to measure against. And in your business, like, would you be willing to have a look at where doubts and insecurities are actually robbing you in your business across five key indicators as well.

So it’s, it’s useful to get some optics on these things [00:44:00] and, and accurately understand the cost of inaction on the cost of continuing on. So. Yeah, otherwise I’ve got 300 episodes on my unhindered podcast. You can hear me coach other people around this and be a fly on the wall because it’s such a vulnerable subject.

It’s nice to be able to be vicarious about this and just watch someone else go in. So yes, there’s plenty of resources specific to overcoming insecurity as part of the insecurity project. Fantastic. Well, we’ll make sure we put all those links in the show notes, but Jamie, can I just thank you so much for your time today and what an interesting subject and wish you all the best going forward.